Balkans is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bulgaria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bulgaria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BulgariaWikipedia:WikiProject BulgariaTemplate:WikiProject BulgariaBulgaria articles
Balkans is part of the WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Bosnia and Herzegovina on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Bosnia and HerzegovinaWikipedia:WikiProject Bosnia and HerzegovinaTemplate:WikiProject Bosnia and HerzegovinaBosnia and Herzegovina articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CroatiaWikipedia:WikiProject CroatiaTemplate:WikiProject CroatiaCroatia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greek geography on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
Balkans is part of WikiProject Kosovo, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Kosovo on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.KosovoWikipedia:WikiProject KosovoTemplate:WikiProject KosovoKosovo articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject North Macedonia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of North Macedonia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.North MacedoniaWikipedia:WikiProject North MacedoniaTemplate:WikiProject North MacedoniaNorth Macedonia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Montenegro, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Montenegro on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MontenegroWikipedia:WikiProject MontenegroTemplate:WikiProject MontenegroMontenegro articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SerbiaWikipedia:WikiProject SerbiaTemplate:WikiProject SerbiaSerbia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Slovenia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Slovenia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SloveniaWikipedia:WikiProject SloveniaTemplate:WikiProject SloveniaSlovenia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey articles
Balkans is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Wikipedia coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.YugoslaviaWikipedia:WikiProject YugoslaviaTemplate:WikiProject YugoslaviaYugoslavia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Europe, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to European topics of a cross-border nature on Wikipedia.EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject EuropeTemplate:WikiProject EuropeEurope articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Eastern Europe, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Eastern EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject Eastern EuropeTemplate:WikiProject Eastern EuropeEastern Europe articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Geography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of geography on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GeographyWikipedia:WikiProject GeographyTemplate:WikiProject Geographygeography articles
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
The following language has been added to the article: Albanian, Greek, and other Palaeo-Balkan languages, had their formative core in the Balkans after the Indo-European migrations in the region., sourced to Friedman 2022 [1] and Lazaridis et al. 2022 [2]. Modern Greek and Albanian are not classified as "Paleo-Balkan" (although the ancestor of Albanian is). I have full of access to both sources, and neither backs the language used. No page number is given for Friedman, who anyway makes no mention of "Paleo=Balkan" anywhere, and Lazaridis uses Greek, Palaeo-Balkan languages, and Albanian, i.e. does not include Greek and Albanian among the "Paleo-Balkan languages". Further down Lazaridis et al. state Together with the extraordinary heterogeneity in autosomal ancestry in the Balkans, a picture emerges of a fragmented genetic landscape that may well parallel the poorly understood linguistic diversity in the ancient Balkans which among IE languages includes Paleo-Balkan speakers prior to the spread of Latin and Slavic, with Albanian the only surviving representative. I realize it is extremely important to some people to prove to the world that their language is "paleo-Balkan" and I don't care about that. But, Greek is nowhere described as "Paleo-Balkan", and source falsification, especially on such a high visibility article is an absolute no-no. Khirurg (talk) 15:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Paleo-Balkan languages is used to refer to those languages that emerged after the Indo-European migrations in the region and were there before the Roman period. Both Albanian and Greek, which are among the major branches of the Indo-European language family, are included in that group in current linguistics. So that wording is accurate. If you want to distinguish Greek from the Paleo-Balkan grouping, then seek consensus to remove that language from the relevant article (Paleo-Balkan languages). – Βατο (talk) 15:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your post is original research. The sources you have added do not in any way back the wording you have used. One does not even mention Paleo-Balkan languages, the other is falsified. If the above post is your best attempt at a justification, additional community input will be sought. Khirurg (talk) 16:27, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My post is not original research, it is based on Friedman 2022: [3], [4], [5]; and also the source Lazaridis et al. 2022 is talking about the post-PIE Balkan languages. If you argue that the labelling 'Palaeo-Balkan languages' is not directly mentioned by those sources, you can propose another wording of the relevant languages if you find it, but the link to that article would be the same because the sources are talking about that group of IE languages. – Βατο (talk) 16:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Palaeo-Balkan languages = Palaeo-Balkan sprachbund. And Friedman 2022 is talking about the history of the language contact in the Balkans, from pre-Indo-European times to modern times, the section being titled "The Balkans as a Historical Linguistic Space". – Βατο (talk) 19:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Palaeo-Balkan languages = Palaeo-Balkan sprachbund Are you kidding me with this? Did you even look at Friedman or Balkan sprachbund? Balkan Sprachbund is about the modern languages, including Slavic languages, Romanian, etc. This is also what Friedman is referring to. Nothing whatsoever to do with Paleo-Balkan languages like Illyrian, Thracian and Dacian. I'm starting to wonder here. Khirurg (talk) 20:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I realize it is extremely important to some people to prove to the world that their language is "paleo-Balkan" and I don't care about that. Hahaha I know, there are some desperate people who spend their days trolling on various online fora (BalkanInsight, Kathimerini etc), but Bato and I are not that kind of loser. Do not assume bad faith on us. Thanks, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Khirurg: it seems you did not read Friedman's chapter (here are the pages I cited above [6], [7], [8]). He talks about all known linguistic eras of the Balkans, also about the Indo-European migrations and later. And yes, Palaeo-Balkan is at least an areal linguistic grouping, i.e. a prehistoric "sprachbund", since the genetic relationship between those languages is still a matter of research, but contacts among those neighboring languages occurred. – Βατο (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have full access to Friedman and there is simply nothing in there to justify lumping Greek and Albanian together with Paleo-Balkan. Lazaridis et al. explicitly distinguish Greek and Albanian from Paleo-Balkan (something which you keep avoiding to address), and citing a wikipedia article is a non-starter. Khirurg (talk) 18:24, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lazaridis et al. do not distinguish Albanian from Palaeo-Balkan: linguistic diversity in the ancient Balkans which among IE languages includes Paleo-Balkan speakers prior to the spread of Latin and Slavic, with Albanian the only surviving representative. Your statement: I have full access to Friedman and there is simply nothing in there to justify lumping Greek and Albanian together with Paleo-Balkan. is wrong, Friedman describes those languages (branches) as part of the first Indo-European languages of the Balkans until the arrival of Latin, and he expressly states: "have their formative core in the Balkans". That's exactly the definition of Palaeo-Balkan languages. – Βατο (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lazaridis absolutely distinguishes between Greek, Albanian, and Paleo Balkan languages {tq|Greek, Palaeo-Balkan languages, and Albanian}}. Being a surviving representative of the Paleo-Balkan sprachbund is not the same thing as being a Paleo-Balkan language. When discussing the ancient languages of the Balkans, Friedman mentions ancient Greek, Illyrian, Thracian and Dacian, not Albanian. But Friedman does not even use "Paleo-Balkan" anywhere, so that is moot anyway. Khirurg (talk) 20:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At least for Tekirdag, the list of largest cities in this article lists the population of the whole Tekirdag province as the population of the city of Tekirdag (which only encompasses a small part of the province). Might this be true for other (Turkish?) cities on the list, too? PragmaFisch (talk) 11:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
.svg){kind=small}
Done CMD (talk) 01:29, 16 October 2023 (UTC)