Talk:Fenghuang

Peabody Essex Museum Edit-a-thon Spring 2014

This article was edited as part of the Peabody Essex Museum Edit-a-thon Spring 2014

The editor who attended the event may be a new editor. In an effort to support new editors, please assume good faith to their contributions before making changes. Thank you! Ed Rodley (talk)

(1 image added) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cathypem (talk • contribs) 15:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Further Development

Ok. The Pheonix has specific connotations that lead a person to believe in the fire-rebirth myth. This is not the case in this bird as there appears to be no means of rebirth for it at all! I am completely unfamiliar with this legend and I am hesitant to mention it in the main article for fear I might put something more misleading.

Please include the differences between it and the Western world's interpretation of Phoenix, and also AznMaster, please elaborate a bit on the rest of the legend as it would greatly help the context of the legend/mysthology. I love that stuff. Duemellon 14:12, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Fenghuang is often confused with one of the "Four Celestial Animals" comprising the Black Turtle (North), Red Phoenix (South), Green Dragon (East), and White Tiger (West). All of these animals are immortal, no rebirth required. To read more about the Four Celestial Animals click here. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 22:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I would like to see a citation for the "Appearance" section. tyger 19:23, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict?

The article states that phoenixes which appear with combs date from the Ming dynasty or later. Yet that statement is right next to a picture of a Song-dynasty vase with (surprise) a comb. Can anyone account for the discrepancy? If no, we should probably remove the text assertion, since (sourced or no) it's plainly contradicted by other information on the page. (oops JSoules (talk) 06:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Sorry, six years later now, and the conflict between text and image remains (!). I have carefully read the reference, and what Patricia Welch says there is pretty clearly in contradiction to the visual evidence given in the article. So I double checked the image, and it seems pretty clearly to be a Song Dynasty representation (had to figure out the French image description for that, but no worries). So something is not adding up: either the photographer got his details wrong (not very likely, I don't think) or Ms. Welch is saying things which are not entirely accurate (which seems more likely, though still doubtful-- surely her publisher had her work fact-checked... surely?) or there is another twist of which I am not certain. I have attempted to reword the end of the paragraph so that it at least doesn't directly contradict the evidence in the image, but I would rather have someone who knows tell us for sure. Or, as you say, remove either the text or the image until further clarity can be reached. KDS4444^Talk 14:27, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

JSoules, I just got an email from Patricia Welsh, the source from the statement about combs and the Ming Dynasty, responding the apparent conflict in chronology. She said she would look into the matter and get back to me with a reference if she could find it, and that until then the sentence should probably be removed (which I have now done). She also suggested that it is possible the pottery item is actually a rooster and not a phoenix, but that this might be difficult to ascertain as it has been designated a phoenix at the museum where it resides. KDS4444^Talk 01:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

KDS4444, hey, thanks for following up on this! Been a long while since I logged in... Did Patricia Welsh ever look into it further? JSoules (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, JSoules! Blast from the past! Wow! You know what? I got a response from Ms. Welsh! She acknowledged the apparent discrepancy, and wrote this: "For now, let's remove the Ming reference and I'll continue to search for the original source for the reference, and do some research on my end and see what I come up with. We could also re-label the picture to something like "commonly identified as a phoenix head, but perhaps also a rooster" but that might confuse more than help readers... your call." I thanked her for responding and said I would look forward to a follow-up, but none ever came. I could try to contact her once again— what do you think? KDS4444 (talk) 00:36, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pheonix As Chickens

Can anyone cite the source that chicken are called pheonix in prayer and ceremonies? Because from personal experience in China, nobody calls chicken pheonixes. Is there perhaps a certain part of the country that does this? I'll be taking down the phrase for the time being Spyco 05:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"...chicken are called pheonix in prayer and ceremonies?"

Where did you read this? I couldn't find it on the page anywhere. The only mention of Chicken is that of the Fenghuang's alternate name, Hunji or Kunji, meaning "August Rooster." Click here for a very small chinese dictionary description. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 22:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I ment I deleted that phrase. I speak Chinese, so I know they don't call it that. If anyone can cite the source or part/dialect of china/chinese where this comes from, please return the phrase and add the source. Dion 07:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Harry Potter?

Dumblebore in the Harry Potter series has a pet phoenix named Fawkes - If I recall correctly, that's a Western phoenix, no? If no one objects, I'll remove that Nik42 08:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All of the info ranging from Power Rangers to Harry Potter should be moved to an actual Phoenix page. The Chinese and western phoenix are two completely different things!!! I'm glad you brought that to our attention. If you don't do it soon, I'll do it myself. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 15:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I suspected as much for the others, but the Harry Potter one was the only one I was sure of. I'm moving them now to the Phoenix (mythology) page. Nik42 17:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fenghuang Village (Hunan Province)

Fenghuang is also the name of a very popular Miao (ethnic minority) tourist village in west Hunan province below Wuling Shan. Perhaps a notation should be made, and hopefully eventually a seperate page for Fenhuang village —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.102.177.197 (talk)

External Link Selections

That first link seems to have little (if any) relevance to the Chinese Pheonix; it's mostly concerned with how the Bible can be interpreted with regards to *dragons*. If the link is to be saved, then it should be included on a different page. 65.81.140.11 22:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)Pica[reply]

References

There are no references on this page, but some of the text appears to have been taken directly from this page: http://www.chinesemoods.com/chinesemotives.html. Suppose THAT site could have taken the text directly from here. Hard to say. -pscott

Conflict - 5 colors but 4 virtues?

Their feathers were of the five fundamental colors: black, white, red, green, and yellow. These colors are said to represent the Confucian virtues of: loyalty, honesty, decorum, and justice.

They have 5 colors, but why does the represented virtues are only 4 ? --Rochelimit (talk) 18:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hō-ō bird and Japanese mythology

This talk page has been dead for six or seven years, but what the heck: it looks like the Japanese equivalent animal for the fenghuang is call the hō-ō (written in identical kanji characters) and that the ho-o shares many (but not all?) of the characteristics (mythologically) as the fenghuang; it also appears that the Koreans also have such a bird called a bulsanjo, but I could find out very little about this myth. I don't think we should have redirects from "Japanese phoenix" or "Korean phoenix" that point to "Chinese phoenix", as this badly conflates Asian history and culture, but I am not at all certain that enough material (in English) exists to create stand-alone articles on the other types of Asian phoenix (also: is there no Vietnamese version? Lao version? Tibetan version? 'Cause I expect there is...). I am also not at all sure that this article should end up being retitled "Asian phoenix", for the reasons I just mentioned about conflation. Does anyone have any thoughts on this or on how we might parse the different Asian cultural associations and meanings? KDS4444^Talk 02:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okaaaaaay, on second glance it looks like the Japanese Wikipedia itself describes the ho-o as a Chinese bird, not as a Japanese one. Maybe the Chinese is the overarching version of the animal after all (?). KDS4444^Talk 03:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The creature originates in China, which is why it is referred to as the "Chinese phoenix." It's Japanese, Korean, and other counterparts are all cultural imports to those countries. Osarusan (talk) 11:46, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Fenghuang/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Better known as Chinese Phoenix. --Ideogram 06:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 06:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 15:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Modern usage

In the "Modern Usage" section, would it be appropriate to put the Korean President at the top of the list, since that usage (symbol for head of state) is the closest to the historical usage (symbol for Emperor's consort)? ~~All other usages are merely references/borrowings from the historical usage.~~ 101.112.254.244 (talk) 05:22, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I retract some of my previous comment. However, I have been WP:BOLD and made changes to reflect government usage of the phoenix in Japan and Korea. 101.112.254.244 (talk) 11:27, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]