Talk:Papiamento

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Ladino?!

While I understand that Portuguese Jews and Spanish Jews were originally the same and bilingual, and most portuguese Jews originated in Spain and went there because the inquisition in portugal would not come till later,none of these groups would speak ladino! rather they would Speak Standard Spanish & portuguese! Ladino (as a language) is alien to them, and is the language of EASTERN Sephardim! (turks,greeks,etc) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

At the time of Jews expulsion of Spain Ladino and Spanish were two names for the same language! Differentition started later, but in no case in America becuase Jews were not allowed to travel to the New World! I might have been some crypto-Jews among the immnigrants but they didn't create group (of course they wanted to hide their origen) but neither they spoke a different language. Even New Christians were not allowed to inmigrate to America. (This apperence of Ladino is bit Marcian!) At that time Spanish and Portuguese languages were closer that today, close to be even consider two varities of the same language, so the discussion of the origen has to take this into account — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.232.208.11 (talk) 10:40, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Before 1492 the Spanish language was called: Ladino, Romance, Español or Castellano. In that year both the Jews were expulsed and it was published the first grammar Gramática de la lengua castellana. In that book the author propose to stop using ladino and romance denominations (the more common names) and propose to use castellano o "lengua española" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.232.208.11 (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

proof for this recent addition needed

When Spanish discovered and ruled the islands, many Spanish words were obtained. Spanish was also added through Ladino, Spanish-influenced language, of Brazilian Sephardic Jews.

-Pedro 17:20, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is this enough?

[1] Most of these settlers were originally from Spain and Portugal. They had fled the Inquisition and found refuge first in Holland and in Northern Brazil and later in Curaçao.

• why were the Brazilian jews Spanish-influenced? It is true that the Jews escaped to Portugal with the spanish expulsion of the jews. And many made it. But Portugal also wanted to have a good image in the Holly See, so it also started to persue the jews, the spaniards were a too easy pray. Some converted, some pretended they were Christians, and tryed to go to the Brazilian colony along with other settlers, away from Metropolitan Portugal, were the inquisition started also the have a big role, also has a side-effect to what was happening in Spain. Why they would be Spanish-influenced? Did they really spoke Ladino? Spanish jews have, in fact, entered in Portugal. So it is possible. Although not enough, it justifies a big doubt: The spanish toke the native from this islands to anothers and named them: Islas Inutiles(useless islands) because there was not precious metals, so if there was influence in the natives it would go with them for the other islands. But that's not what's written in the article: When Spanish discovered and ruled the islands, many Spanish words were obtained. and Spanish was also added through Ladino, Spanish-influenced language, of Brazilian Sephardic Jews. - so... i'm not getting where did you get these conclusions. --Pedro 13:38, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[2]

With the reoccupation by Portugal of the Dutch-held parts of Brazil, in 1654, the Jews were forced to leave Recife and Olinda, and seek other places of settlement. Now they were also regarded as experienced planters and traders in tropical produce — sugar, cacao, vanilla, and indigo — and people coming from Brazil were used to life in tropical conditions and therefore were very much needed in the American colonies. These exiles from Dutch Brazil took their place among the main producers of sugar in Cayenne, Pomeroon, Surinam, Barbados, Jamaica, Martinique, and Guadeloupe. The "Black Code" promulgated in 1683 by the French king Louis XIV instigated the expulsion of the Jews from the French-held islands.

The choice fell on Joshua Hizquiau de Cordova. He was a member of a Sephardi family originating in Istanbul. Born in Amsterdam, he arrived in Curaçao to teach the Bible and Talmud in Ladino translations and also to hold services and preach.

Jews lived in Dutch, English, and Danish colonies in the Caribbean. Yet, their language in the 17th and 18th centuries remained Spanish or Portuguese.

[3] When the Portuguese regained control of Recife in 1654, the Jews were again subject to the Inquisition. Some left for Holland. Some went to Curacao and then to New Amsterdam

There´s no support anywhere in the net of this affirmation that Ladino was used by the Jews that came from Brazil. Some part of this very same Jewish group went to Barbados:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:JBLFvo7SUBsJ:tracingthetribe.blogspot.com/2007/04/barbados-treasure-of-sephardic-jewish.html+jew+portuguese+barbados&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=br

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:JoUwB-3pkqAJ:barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2006/11/12/jewish-history-in-barbados-fabulous-article-online/+jew+portuguese+barbados&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=br

All the Jews carry very characteristic Portuguese names (in other words, names that can´t be confused with Spanish names). So, why we should affirm the Jewish that fled Brazil would use Ladino despite Portuguese? The Ladino current use, as stated, would make sense if a substantial community of Ladino speakers were present in the territory, but, everything points to the roots of the Jewish group in Neth. Antilles laying in Northeastern Brazil.

Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.41.200.30 (talk) 19:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

list of words

Seems like all the lists of papiamento/english/portuguese words should be moved out to another article now and combined with Papiamento Verbs, Food and Beverages in Papiamento, and More words in Papiamento. I will do that if there are not significant objections. I have some more lists of papiamento words that I would like to integrate when I get some time. - Taxman 16:57, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)

A couple of problems. First, I've just removed this new addition: “and one ethymologic, called Papiamento, reason why it resembles Spanish (in Aruba).” I assuming that 'etymological' was meant, but I don't see how it makes sense in the context. In fact, even correcting the last part to: 'which is the reason that it resembles Spanish', it just doesn't fit here.

Secondly, the same person has made a lot of alterations to the lists of words & phrases. I don't know if it's the same person who made the original list (it really would help if people registered), nor am I in a position to judge their accuracy. Some help would be useful here.

Actually, thirdly, is it appropriate to an article like this to be made up largely of what amounts to a Papiamento–English phrase book/dictionary? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reorganization of article

I like the phrasebook idea, so I don't object to its presence in the Wikipedia. But the Papiamento article should focus on the language itself: Grammar, Phonology, Orthography, History, Dialects, Syntax that kind of thing, and the phrasebook should be moved to Papiamento vocabulary or Papiamento phrasebook. I didn't know Papiamento is a tonal language, as the article asserts, but I couldn't help noticing that there's no indication of what the "tones" are, nor is there any representation of the tones in the extensive phrasebook. Tomer ^TALK 22:28, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

As you'll notice above I agree with you, I just never got to it. I know very little about the language except what I have read in a few things over the last year. I say go for it. Se what other languages have done as an example. Maybe there is a Wikiproject with guidelines. - Taxman 23:05, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Sadly, I'm not your man. As I indicated, I didn't even know it was tonal. If you look at my contribs, you'll notice most of my linguistic interests lately have been elsewhere... :-/ Tomer ^TALK 00:16, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

• I think there should be a wikiproject on Creoles (obviously realistical) - with substract language and with special focus on superstact. Has I see in wikipedia, many people confuse the substract with Superstract and occasionally is very upseating to constantly correcting it. This is because these languages are very different from normal ones. I'm thinking in completing and correcting the Portuguese Creole article, anbd also dividing it into several, because it is too big. Has for the phrases it was just a curiosity that a speaker and I did, just to see with our eyes where the origin of the language was. There are many good linguists out there! (irony) -Pedro 15:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia in Papiamento

A request for a Wikipedia in Papiamento has been posted to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Papiamentu. If you are a (native) speaker of Papiamentu and/or want to support this new Wikipedia you can add your accountname on meta to this request list. Gebruiker:Dedalus 12:34, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Personally I think we need a really good article about it first, but that's just me. To each their own, that's what we're here for. - Taxman 15:46, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

I started to change it. Correct what's left. -Pedro 21:34, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ta

From what I read years ago, Papiamento ta came from tabata , itself from Spanish (and Portuguese?) estaba ("it/he/she was"). --Error 00:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• It can be... The Portuguese Pidgin that spreed in Africa obviously prefered to use "ta" than another word: mim tá aqui.-> me is here., "mim taba aqui", etc.. Remember that Papiamento was confused to be a Spanish Creole, well many still classify it has Iberian. I think we can use the examples to make tables allways with the Port. and Spanish. words, but smaller in size...-Pedro 00:40, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article suggests:

"Another comparison is the use of the verb "ta" from vernacular Portuguese "tá" (from "estar", to be) with verbs where Portuguese does and with others where it does not use it: "Mi ta + verb", also the rule in the Cape Verdean Creoles. These issues can also be seen in other Portuguese Creoles."

But "ta" also exists in vernacular Spanish. FilipeS 20:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

"Ta" is used in Guatemala, where "ta bien," "ta bueno," "ta linda" are used instead of "está." In fact, "ta" is used in place of "está" in virtually all cases. It is still considered non-standard however. V also shifts to B in common speech, e.g "Ba pue Dio pue" is used for "Good Bye" having come from "Va Pues, Adios Pues." ...-User:Djalo24 16:12, 07 Nov 2006 (GMT)

Relation between African creoles and northern Portuguese

The article suggests: "The use of "b" instead of "v" is very common in the African Portuguese Creoles due to their relation with Northern Portugal dialects." What relation would that be? FilipeS 20:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

• Old Portuguese (around the 15th century). --Pedro 03:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean... FilipeS 12:06, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• Standard Old Portuguese was the pronunciation of Northern Portugal. Not the one of Coimbra like today. Most people that went to the discoveries were also from Northern Portugal. See, for instance, in Cape Verdean creole (Santiago): homem is pronunced homi (home or homi in Northern Portugal). Vaca is pronunced baca. coraçom instead of coração, etc. --Pedro 12:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I know that the phonology of northern Portuguese is conservative in many ways, but I'm not sure that the merger of /b/ with /v/ is one of them. After all, medieval texts distinguished the letter "b" from the letter "v(/u)". If everyone pronounced both the same way, would they have bothered to make the distinction? FilipeS 23:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if those reasons link really Papiamento with Portuguese. First of all "ta" - "estaba" occurs as well in Port. as in Spanish. Second 'mi' is exactly the Spanish word 'mí', to which is closer than to Port. 'mim'. Then, the lack of diference between phonetic /b/ and /v/ is one of the characteristics of Spanish, and the written difference is etimologic. After this I can tell you that there's another mistake in the 'bo' / 'vos' relationship: 'vos' is not a Port. word (it is voçê) but a Spanish and Ladino word 'vos' equivalent to 'tú' (you) -in fact, for example, Argentineans use 'vos' and not 'tú'. Therefore if the use of 'bo' in Papiamento resembles more Spanish than Portuguese (an Argentinian would pronounce 'bos'). I think you should include those possibilities in Wikipedia istead of asuming Papiamento really comes from Portuguese, which is an undecidable question (every pro-Portuguese argument can be tear down with a pro-Spanish one). (Ollebha 09:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC))

You are mistaken in your third counterargument. "Vos" (modern spelling "vós") is indeed a Portuguese word. FilipeS 22:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The presence of any portuguese-sounding words at all which are not spanish-sounding, like bon and ainda (which in spanish are buen and aun) seems to point to a portuguese origin of the language, since the spanish had plenty of time to influence the development of the language, whereas the only possible moment of portuguese influence was the origin. Separately, Papiamentu and Cape-Verdean grammar share traits that aren't found anywhere else (I think). As for the phonology, both Papiamentu and portuguese have a large number of vowels, whereas spanish has only a small number, but by itself I don't think it's a major argument. What the evidence suggests is a very early cape-verdean or guinean origin followed by centuries of spanish influence. But Wikipedia is not the place for research. I think this page should be added to the list of Portuguese-based Creoles, and, if someone wants it, to the list of Spanish-based ones (and possibly Dutch-based, as well). Mostly what a creole gets from its base language is the lexicon, so it really is the 3, regardless of origin. 2.80.210.6 (talk) 18:26, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

"Sapato": from Portuguese, or Spanish?

"Portuguese origin words:

• sapato = shoes - Portuguese, sapato, Spanish, zapato"

Why is "sapato" listed as a Portuguese loan to Papiamentu? It could just as well have come from Spanish. (Don't be misled by the spelling; Spanish "zapato" is pronounced [sapato] in most dialects.) FilipeS 20:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

And vice-versa for other words. Portuguese and spanish vocabulary are so similar that I suppose most words of Papiamentu can't really be traced to one or the other language. 2.80.210.6 (talk) 18:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I would like to clarify something in response to the comment about the word 'sapato'/'zapato' and the its origins.

Papiamento (Aruba) and Papiamentu (Curaçao) spelling is different. Aruba uses etymological spelling whereas Curaçao and Bonaire use phonological spelling.

Aruba: zapato (shoe) Curaçao and Bonaire: sapato (shoe)

Aruba: cas (house) Curaçao and Bonaire: kas (house)

Aruba: con ta bai? (how are you doing?) Curaçao and Bonaire: kon ta Bai? (how are you doing?)

Aruba: cuantu e ta costa? (how much does it cost?) Curaçao and Bonaire: kuantu e ta kosta? (how much does it cost?)

Etcetera —

I know this based on personal experience, having lived on Aruba for over 5 years and knowing people from Aruba, Curaçao and Bonaire. You can find multiple sources online confirming my claim, one of which is the following: https://www.hawaii.edu/satocenter/langnet/definitions/papiamentu.html

 Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.164.2.113 (talk) 07:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Tim Horton quote

Tim Horton is quoted as saying Papiamento is the "only language created in the 20th century." Should this be included, especially in the introduction, since the history section indicates that the language has been around for at least a couple hundred of years? Perhaps someone who is better informed could fix this... Fufthmin 21:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I took it out. However, you could have at least spelled his name correctly… —Sesel 00:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Sesel -- I most have been thinking about breakfast or a donut snack when I wrote that. My apologies to Mr Hector. Fufthmin 15:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sefardies

The king Joao I de Portugal settled atlantic west african islands (Sao Tome , Prince...) with thousand sefardies jews refugees from Spain. The guinean gulf was the slave trade center. Looking for in internet. It is a buzz that Columbus was sefardi jew descent from Balear islands people. 212.97.181.220 10:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Aruban/Arawak origin vs. Afro-Portuguese pidgin

I recely removed a piece of text inserted into the history section of this article that is badly formatted and does not fit in the flow of the rest of the article. It represents a phenomenon I observed between Aruban and Curaçaoan debates on history recently, something I would refer to as the present-day politics of the past; involving re-inventions or selective interpretations of history to buttress present-day nationalist efforts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Poolofthoughts (talk • contribs)

The article makes reference to Jossy Mansur as the main proponent of disproving the "identity politics nationalist" theory of papiamento's west african roots, it says in the article that the roots of papiamento are some kind of Indian Spanish. It would certainly be interesting to see proof or evidence for Papiamento being of Indian origins, there is certainly an Indian influence on the language, but the authors of this article cite Mansur as the main proponent of this theory, which is a precarious thing to do as Jossy Mansur has no degree in linguistics what-so-ever, nor in anthropology, nor in history or any related field, whereas linguists in Curacao such as Dr. Frank Martinus Arion who claim West African origins are indeed linguists.

There is constant mention of how the argument for papiamento's roots being West African are completely baseless and rely entirely on the emotions of "identity politics nationalists," but never mentions or backs up these rather insulting opinions with any fact, whereas there are known theses and linguistic studies on the theme of Papiamento's West African connections, such as by Todd Dandare (Mag. Linguist) and the study Kiss of a Slave by Dr. Efraim Frank Martinus, which strangely is cited or mentioned at the bottom of the page despite the content of the article.83.83.44.57 23:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Poolofthoughts replies to Comments

I had removed a written piece in the article, which as far as I can tell from its bad formulations, argues for Papiamento as a national language of Aruba. I think that sort of argument embodies the kind of nationalist theories that I observed both on Curaçao and Aruba. Whether forwarded by Curaçao or Aruban nationalists, such arguments are always insult other ABC islanders. More important are the historical inaccuracies that such arguments rely on, which have no place in the wikipedia.

"The article makes reference to Jossy Mansur as the main proponent of disproving the "identity politics nationalist" theory of papiamento's west african roots, it says in the article that the roots of papiamento are some kind of Indian Spanish."

An argument for Papiamentu's West African roots could never serve to buttress a nationalist effort to cast Papiamentu as exclusively Curaçaoan heritage. A origin theory that could serve a Curaçao nationalist purpose would have to argue that Papiamentu arose on Curaçao and not anywhere else. If it came from West-Africa, how can it be solely from Curaçao? A local origin nationalist theory claims that Papiamentu originated on Curaçao as a Spanish dialect which then developed into a separate language. This origin theory sounds remarkably similar to the Aruban Indian Broken Spanish theory.

There is constant mention of how the argument for papiamento's roots being West African are completely baseless and rely entirely on the emotions of "identity politics nationalists, ... "

I would like to know where "the constant mention of Papiamentu's West African roots" are considered completely baseless. There can be no doubt that some West African element must have been influential in the development of Papiamentu, given that the vast majority of those who speak the language that can claim at partial if not full African heritage. It is important to note that there are several "West-African origin theories" of Papiamentu out there, some which are more credible than others.

The study "Kiss of a Slave" by Dr. E Frank Martinus makes a STRONG case for the West African connections of Papiamentu which Dr. Martinus backs up with plenty of evidence. To be precise, Dr. Martinus does not argue that Papiamentu came from Africa but that several contact languages developed between Africans and Europeans in West Africa, one of which made it to the ABC islands (that is Curaçao, Bonaire AND Aruba) and LATER DEVELOPED INTO PAPIAMENTU on ALL THREE ISLANDS that until very recently were politically, economically and culturally closely intertwined.

Dr. E Frank Martinus compares Papiamentu and other Afro-Spanish and Portuguese Pidgins and creoles (some of which are still spoken in West Africa) and notes very strong morphological, syntactic, phonological and even lexical similarities. Dr. E Frank Martinus also provides a litany of historical evidence that show how a predecessor Afro-Iberian pidgin was spoken between slavetraders and slaves in the slave forts of West Africa. Such evidence makes a stronger case than letters/documents by colonial officers/missionaries that were not professional linguists nor anthropologists that conjecture that Papiamentu is Indian Spanish.

There are also non-Curaçaoan/Aruban linguists/anthropologists that support thesis Afro-Spanish/Portuguese origins of Papiamentu. See Gary Fouse (2002) The Story of Papiamentu. New York: University Press of America; John H. Holm (1989) Pidgins and Creoles Volume One. Theory and Structure. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press and John McWhorter (2000) The Missing Spanish Creoles: : Recovering the Birth of Plantation Contact Language. Berkeley: University of California Press. Surely these people cannot be accused of having a pro-Aruban or pro-Curaçao nationalist bias?

The Indian Role in Papiamentu

As far as the role of "Indians" to Papiamentu, or better phrased the contributions of the indigenous inhabitants of all three ABC islands, it appears that the indigenous language functioned as a lexifier to a language with a Iberian-West African grammatical base.

The study "Stemmen uit het Verleden" by Sidney Joubert and Gerard van Buurt shows that Papiamentu AS SPOKEN ON ALL THREE ABC ISLANDS has a considerable amount of vocabulary from the Maipurean and Arawakan languages once widely spoken in the Caribbean and still spoken among indigenous peoples in the Guyanas and Amazonia. The study shows the etymology of 2500 or so words with Maipurean origins. The same study notes that there is no phonological, morphological or syntactic similarities between Papiamentu or any Maipurean language that was indigenous to all three ABC islands. There has been no other respectable study that has claimed any such linguistic similarities. In fact, these Maipurean languages were/are quite different from Papiamentu, one example being the Wayuu language still spoken on the Guajira Peninsula of South America very close to Aruba.

It is true that indigenous American genetic heritage is more visible in Aruba and Bonaire than in Curaçao, but these differences need not be relevant for language development. This is supported by the fact that the same words of Maipurean-Arawakan origin documented in the study by Baart and Joubert are in use on all three ABC islands.

As another interesting example of the independence between somatic traits and linguistic development, the Garífuna in Belize and Honduras are people with mixed African and indigenous Caribbean descent that still speak a language which directly descends from the indigenous languages of the Caribbean and are among the few that can claim to be upholding the traditions and language of the indigenous inhabitants of the Caribbean.

Indeed there are "identity politics nationalist" debates on Papiamentu's origins which occur as follows: Some nationalist Curaçaoans tout Papiamentu as being "their language" and completely forget that Aruba and Bonaire speak Papiamentu too. Arubans are insulted that Curaçaoans claim Papiamentu as "their language" that and retaliate that Papiamentu is being "stolen from Arubans" (forgetting of course about the Bonairians). Each side makes selective use of historical information to defend their position. In light of the vast and complex historical realities surrounding the origins of Papiamentu, such identity-politics-driven debates seem trite and petty.

—The preceding comment was added by Poolofthoughts (talk • contribs)

Reply: An argument for Papiamentu's West African roots could never serve to buttress a nationalist effort to cast Papiamentu as exclusively Curaçaoan heritage. A origin theory that could serve a Curaçao nationalist purpose would have to argue that Papiamentu arose on Curaçao and not anywhere else. If it came from West-Africa, how can it be solely from Curaçao? A local origin nationalist theory claims that Papiamentu originated on Curaçao as a Spanish dialect which then developed into a separate language. This origin theory sounds remarkably similar to the Aruban Indian Broken Spanish theory.

First of all, the term "nationalist" is rather misleading as it would imply that these tiny island nations have strong political tendencies towards wanting their island nations to become romanticized independent nation states. These islands, Aruba, Curacao, and Bonaire, are still officially colonies of the Netherlands, thouhg they exhibit some traits of postcolonial societies, and the majority of their populations don't see it as realistic to want total, complete indepence, they doubt they'll be able to survive without the relationship with the old colonial metropole. Perhaps chauvinism would be a more plausible term. There is also the question of pride, and of race. Curacao is overwhelmingly a black island, Aruba is more mixed, a creole society comprising a majority of people who could be classified in some way as a kind of "mestizo" or a mix of native american, european, black, and other ethnicities, and then there are some who consider themselves white and some who are white, and then there is a black community of people descending from immigrants who came from other islands, and then other immigrant communities. All Caribbean nations that are black often derive their pride, whether it be national or cultural, from the notion of their African roots and African origins, therefore the idea of papiamentu as having African origins is very important to the Curacaolenean, less so to Arubans. This is not linguistic data or anything but is a sketch of what is being discussed as to the alleged controversies about the language. Most linguists who are from the islands, such as Martinus and Todd Dandare, claim that though the vocabulary of papiamentu derives from European and Native American influences, the grammar, structure and [I suspect also] intonation is largely West African. Among more moneyed white speakers of papiamento there may often be a very intense disdain for acknowledging African origins in their culture or in their mother tongue. Naturally for linguists it is important to get to scientific fact, but not all sources from Aruba are trustworthy as anyone on Aruba for example can publish anything and call himself a writer or a professor or whatever. Some Aruban sources are, others arent.

RE: Looking at your reply again I'm not sure you understood what I wrote. When I refer to "the article" I'm talking about the wikipedia entry on papiamento, not something else. I was not implying that the ideas of African origins are at all based on nationalism or identity politics but rather the articles DISMISSAL of these theories (which was apparent in the Wikipedia entry but by now seems to have been revised many times over) in favor of the theory of Indian Spanish relying largely on Jossy Mansur, has to do with sources influenced by regional chauvinism. Whereas most lingusits of the region claim West African origins, those who are influenced by regional chauvinism deny and negate that. I thought I made that clear in what I wrote, such as when I stated that in the wikipedia entry then: "There is constant mention of how the argument for papiamento's roots being West African are completely baseless and rely entirely on the emotions of 'identity politics nationalists,' but never mentions or backs up these rather insulting opinions with any fact, whereas there are known theses and linguistic studies on the theme of Papiamento's West African connections, such as by Todd Dandare (Mag. Linguist) and the study Kiss of a Slave by Dr. Efraim Frank Martinus, which strangely is cited or mentioned at the bottom of the page despite the content of the article.83.83.44.57 23:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)" I said strangley cited because at the time the wikipedia article referred to the Indian Spanish claim of Mansur as being most plausible, whereas the claims coming from Curacao were painted as more influenced by Curacaolenean "nationalism." Mansur claims all the time that the idea of African origins are baseless. The version of the article I initially reacted to, favored Mansur's claim of indian spanish as opposed to African origins, it at least seemed that that version of the article rejected African origins, unless what you meant is that you reject the idea of Curacao being the land of origin for papiamento. Aruba would have in any case most likely have received the language papiamento via Curacao, I doubt that anyone claims it originated wholly on the island of Curacao, the strong argument of Curacaolenean intellectuals is usually more along the lines of it having derived from Afroportuguese creole spoken in pockets of colonized Africa and then being brought to Curacao, where it may have devoloped more and come to full fruition as a creole language different from the afroportuguese spoken in these parts of Africa. Curacao having a population descending largely from slaves from West Africa, would very likely have played a role in the development of their language, and it most likely would have been transmitted to Aruba via Curacao.

Comparison

I’ve made some corrections in the Cape Verdean Creole column in the Comparison of Vocabularies table. I’ve chosen the Santiago variant because some people claim that it is the one that is acoustically closer to Papiamento.
The idea of a table comparing several Creoles is interesting. But perhaps, instead of “tourist sentences”, it would be more interesting sentences that show the core characteristics of several Creoles. Here are some suggestions: the basic sentence structure (SVO); personal pronouns; the verbal system (showing Tense/Mood/Aspect); number and gender inflexion.
And when will we see a Swadesh list comparing all of the Portuguese Creoles?
Ten Islands 01:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

TenIslands, I was the author of the table. But, why change only one column? If you want to put the Santiago variant, make another column.... I think the idea of a comparison of the Portuguese creoles excellent. I will try to build a Swadesh List with them. Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domaleixo (talk • contribs) 00:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Emerson! As you can see, the Cape Verdean Creole is not standardized yet. That means that each person speaks one of the 9 varieties of Cape Verdean Creole. It would be ridiculous to put all of the 9 varieties of Cape Verdean Creole, since in most of the examples the words would be the same! In the same way, there is no reason to put the 3 varieites of Papiamentu (Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao), neither the 2 main varieties of Guinea-Bissau Creole (Southern–Bissau and Northern–Cacheu). I’ve chosen the Santiago variant because, as I said before, according to Cape Verdean Creole speakers living in Netherlands, the Santiago variant is the closer one (at least by hearing) to Papiamentu.
Second, I (re)corrected the word for “welcome” because in Cape Verde we do not have any specific word to greet someone who has just arrived, we simply use the Portuguese expression. The Cape Verdean Creole sentence “Nhos bem dretu” means “You came well”.
At last, if you really speak Papiamentu I would be very glad to swap information with you, since I am very interested in comparing Portuguese Creoles. See you. Ten Islands 09:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I don´t understand, why it would be ridiculous to write the different variants of the Cape Verde Creole, even if they carry minimal differences? The same applies to Papiamento, where almost all differences are in the ortography adopted. If you decided to change one block of the table, for me, it seems reasonable that you change all others, or change nothing....or, would you say that the Guinean part (Bô bim drito) has no connection at all with the Cape-Verdean one (Nhôs bem dreto)? I myself know more the Guinean creole than the Cape Verdean, but, for me, it seems that they are equal expressions....so, you should also change the Guinean one too! Otherwise, this table will seems a little confusing to anyone whio sees it. Or, put a new column, with the entire Santiago variant, this will make the interpretation a lot easier! Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.41.203.124 (talk) 01:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Phonology

I changed the name of the 'sounds' section to 'phonology' (it's proper name), and added the IPA values of the 'Dutch sounds' after the ortography. However this sections needs a complete rewrite and great expanding, that's why I also added a tag. It needs: - consonant chart (IPA) - vowel chart (IPA) - phonological and phonotectical rules

I don't speak or study Papiamento, so unfortunately I cannot do it. Jalwikip (talk) 11:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Example phrases

I've removed a number of phrases as the section was getting long. I have no idea if the current phrases are correct but changes to the list should be mentioned here and additions to the list should be justified. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not too happy with the format of the example phrases. They only compare to one different language, while for example "Kòrda skirbi mi bèk mas lihé posibel!: "Write me back as soon as possible!" Portuguese: Recorde-se de escrever assim que for possivel." obviously also has English (bèk) and other influences. skirbi could have part Dutch origins in schrijven or even the English scribbling, mas sounds Spanish to me. I'm no linguistic expert and only have limited knowledge of the language from living on the islands for six years, but I think the examples would be better served by having the examples show the different (possible) roots of the words and constructions in the sentences. My knowledge of especially Spanish and Protuguese is not good enough to make the edit myself though. - User:AdriaanRenting

Are you saying that the example phrases should discuss the possible origins of each word used? Do any other language articles in Wikipedia give that level of analysis? But if you're saying that it's weird to give Portuguese translations of all the example phrases, I would agree with you there.

(We could bring this article closer to Neutral Point of View by making it more similar to other language profiles in Wikipedia.)Rikat (talk) 19:22, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Just passing by, with some info that can be useful. “Skirbi” is exactly the same as in Guinea-Bissau Creole, both deriving obviously from Portuguese “escrever”. In both Cape Verdean Creole and Guinea-Bissau Creole there is the word “mas”, that obviously is not derived from Spanish. Ten Islands (talk) 12:08, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

beginning of article

Should the following sentence be in the Present Status section rather than the beginning of the article?

The biggest menace to the existence and the further development of Papiamentu is that native speakers tend to deviate from its origins by replacing original African, Portuguese and Dutch words with Spanish equivalents.

Also, I know this will sound nitpicky, but the first sentence "Papiamento (or Papiamentu) is the language spoken on the Caribbean islands of Aruba, Bonaire, and Curaçao)" creates the impression that Papiamento is the only language spoken on the islands. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say something like "Papiamento is the native language of most inhabitants of the Caribbean islands..." I don't know exactly how to word it.--Rikat (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Civilizado

The first Papiamento newspaper was published in 1871 and titled "Civilisado" (The Civilizer). It should be noted that "civilizado" is Portuguese for "civilized".

Civilizado is civilized in Spanish and Portuguese, but civilizador is "civilizer". I guess that this civilisado was stressed on o, wouldn't it? --Error (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Still no consonants?

What's the difficulty in adding a chart of the consonants? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.58.119 (talk) 03:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Someone has to do the work – the research and the writing. Since contributing to Wikipedia is voluntary and unpaid, it will only be done if someone just decides to do the work themselves.

If you think it's easy, why don't you just do it yourself?

By the way, what's even worse is that the article doesn't even have a single word about the grammar ... --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

stress and tone

there are many examples in the section of the forms 1. "PA-ra" (bird, gloss: from pájaro?) versus "pa-RA" (stand or stop, gloss: aruba accent?) and 2. "para" (stand or stop) versus "para" (stopped or standing [sic]). The problem is that this illustrates only stress, or tone, and not both. If we will not use IPA (which, for tone, I can sympathize with), can we at least use accent marks and standardize on, say, capitals on the mores that have the tonal change? such that those examples, if I am reading them right, would read: 1. "PÁra" (bird) versus "páRA" (stand or stop, aruba) and 2. "PÁra" (stand or stop) versus "paRÁ" (standing or stopped [sic]) ps> It may be worth noting that encoding both stress and tone is basically prescribing regional accent to the language, and especially tonal conformance is considered irrelevant at least when first teaching students. --— robbie ^{page talk} 11:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

is "Aruac" "Arawak"?

in the "local development theory" section.--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 01:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The Antilles and the Portuguese

I was mostly unaware of this, because people tend to foccus on the former colonies with lasting legacy and until I read about the seafarers of Povoa de Varzim, Portugal (my town) for the wiki article. Which were prevalent seafarers, who worked not only in the local port but other important discovery age ports: Vila do Conde (a "twin" town of Povoa) and Lisbon and later also Spain. And Antilles/ West Indies/Castillian Indies is according to well-sourced studies was really prevalent among the local seafarers during this early period, before the Union with the Castille (16th century) and during the union (which opened the Spanish empire to the Portuguese) until the 17th century. They often took Africans in their trade routes as part of the crew to the Antilles and elsewhere. they also had important trade routes in Portuguese Africa.---Pedro (talk) 13:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Websters online Papiamento – English Dictionary

Where can i find Websters online Papiamento – English Dictionary online? Best regards --Yoursmile (talk) 15:50, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

"papear" Spanish slang for chat is wrong

papear means to eat — Preceding unsigned comment added by Your-username-is-too-similar (talk • contribs) 23:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Papiamento Spanish Creole

Papiamento: A Spanish Creole (Centro Virtual Cervantes por Enrique Bernárdez) Enciclopediaenlinea2 (talk) 03:31, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

References

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The current changes are useful improvements. I wonder, however, about the deletion of the use of the word "papia" in the name of Papia Kristang, and its use in Puerto Rico and Cuba, or in Cape Verde. These might be useful in showing a continuity in the iberian based creoles. Papia/papea is still used in Spain and Latin America also, but not in standard, official, registers of the languages. The fact that it has prominence in these other languages/regions is an interesting indicator of its vibracny of meaning in creoles like Papiamentu. This is also useful for people who simply might not know this piece of information. --ObaTango 23:42, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

References

Change title Papiamento to Papiamentu

I move that the title of 'Papiamento' be changed to 'Papiamentu'. Papiamentu, also spelled Papiamento, is a creole language based on Portuguese but heavily influenced by Spanish. Papiamentu is an official language of Curaçao and The Netherlands and Papiamento is of Aruba. It became an official language of the Netherlands when Bonaire become part of it. In Bonaire they speak Papiamentu.

Based on what I found in the encyclopedia Britannica (Link: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Papiamentu) Papiamentu developed in Curaçao after the Netherlands took over the island from Spain in 1634. In 1659, having been expelled from Brazil, several Portuguese-speaking Dutch colonists and their Sephardic Jewish allies immigrated to Curaçao. They took with them not only their slaves but also a Portuguese vernacular. If this vernacular did not yet qualify as a creole, it would within the following decades, after being appropriated and modified by the African slaves who were continually being imported to the island, which was used as a slave-trading centre or “slave depot.” Increased contacts with Spanish-speaking slave buyers from mainland South America introduced a Spanish element into the then-developing Papiamentu. During the 18th century the creole apparently spread to Curaçao’s sister islands of Aruba and Bonaire. This would mean that Papiamentu is name the language (like Dutch is) and that Papiamento came later as a form of a dialect (Like West-Flemish is). It would be incorrect of wikipedia to have Papiamento being the name of the language when this is just a dialect of said language. Papiamento developed from Papiamentu.

This is a sensitive subject for many but the fact is that the majority of Papiamentu speakers don't speak the Papiamento dialect but the Papiamentu variant. Two of the three islands speak Papiamentu. Papiamento originated from Papiamentu. The majority of the Papiamentu users write with diacritics, don't use the letter C (Kòrsou - Corsow) and write phonologically (lòf - love). I move that the name Papiamento be changed to Papiamentu on wikipedia as Papiamentu is more widely spoken/used, it is the original name of the language and is spoken longer than Papiamento. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcLeo2 (talk • contribs) 11:14, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I have read your motion with attention, and I am afraid that I think it is biased. I think you are expressing a dutch-centred view. People in Bonaire always thought they spoke Papiamen, until they joined NL and were reallocated with Papiamentu. Other assumptions are also arguable, and would need to be referenced - for example the claim on what the original name is; or the number of speakers of either dialect, which is similar, with a figure estimated between one and two hundred thousand for each; yes, slightly higher for Papiamentu, but not enough to justify prevalence. I have done a google search, and more sites say Papiamento (also spelled Papiamentu) than the other way round. Then, if you look at Spanish-centred sources, they all refer to papiamento only, with few mentions of the Papiamenu spelling. So, here is my view:

- I would prefer not to make a big fuss on this, because it is divisive, and I think it is preferable for the language to join forces rather than separate the "u's" and the "o's" with a fight over the name. Both names are there in the heading, and the Papiamentu entry does exist, redirecting here.

- For proper discussion, all points need to be substantiated with references, and looking at sources from both sides.

- It might be possible to include some of these elements within the page.Megustalastrufas (talk) 13:22, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Not Portuguese

Papiamento is one of the only -- if not the only -- creoles based largely on Spanish -- not Portuguese.Mwidunn (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

The influence of Guene

I wonder how the influence of Guene in Papiamentu can be dismissed with the phrase "However, because of the secret character of Guene, it never had much influence on Papiamento". My reasons for saying this:

(1)There exist no studies of Guene other than what Frank Martinus has included in his Kiss of a Slave. Both Martinus himself, and Johan Hartog, as well as oral traditions mention four dialects/variants of Guene spoken on the island before the language supposedly disappeared. If this really existed it would be quite fantastic if such a linguistic environment would not influence Papiamentu both structurally and lexically.

(2) Since Guene has not been studied (despite the materials that exist in the Zíkinza Oral History Collection, in Paul Brenneker's Sambumbu ethnographic series, and in his lexicon Mil palabra poko usá) it is difficult to know about African lexical and grammatical contributions to Papiamentu beyond the standard ones cited, or the relationship between African languages and Guene (Were the four varieties mostly based on Afro-Portuguese Atlantic creoles like Martinus says? Were there other regional languages involved? Are there major contributions from specific languages or language clusters?). So, how can we distinguish the African lexical contributions to Papiamentu from supposed non-contribution from Guene?

(3) Guene was still spoken in the 20th century, and transmitted by songmasters, and griots on the island. This is documented in the oral history done by Rene Rosalia, and in Frank Martinus' analysis of the Zíkinza Collection. Both are existing citable sources. Other oral history, that is not published, and thus probably not usable according to Wikipedia standards, also show this transmission through mid-20th century. It would be extremely difficult for such a late co-existence to not matter.

(4) Linguist Nicholas Quint has shown the influence of Bantu, and Benue-Kwa languages in Papiamentu. Disregarding theories (on-island origin, Afro-Atlantic Creole formation, more generic African contributions to a Afro-Atlantic creole base) the evidence at least overlaps with Frank Matinus' identification of Central African materials in Papiamentu. He related it to a West Central African coastal creole, but these elements could have also entered the language through borrowing while the Angolans/Congolese were already on the island. If so: was their language actually one of the four Guene languages spoken on the island? And would that not then be the source of words like guiambo, mangusá, fuku, wandu, funchi, etc?

(5) Although the idea that Guene was used as a secret language is mentioned in the literature it is nowhere proven. Brenneker does mention this, and it is part of local lore. However, the main oral history informant for Guene, Martili Pieters, including for Brenneker (again, uncitable because it is unpublished) actually insisted that there were slave masters who spoke Guene. So, while Guene may have been used as a secret language it might not have effectively served as such in some crucial situations. Lexical transfer to Papiamentu again shows up as a distinct possibility. Besides: this would only indicate transfer to the Papiamentu of slavemasters. Some Guene speakers themselves might have been monolinual, but the multilingual context would have meant that many did speak Papiamentu. The transfer would have been to their own versions of papiamentu. "Secret language" is a difficult category to prove if there were four different varieties. This sounds more like a language of a marginalized group, used for in-group communication and so, also with some secrecy surrounding it. This is the same situation as congo residual in Cuba: spoken as an insider language in the Congolgese community during slavery times, but many words are considered part of Cuban Spanish today. ObaTango (talk) 15:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Native American origin words

Arguably some of these words listed wouldn't come 'directly' from Native American, rather having been transferred through Iberian or Dutch forms.

orkan ("hurricane") – Taíno: juracán
maishi ("corn") – Taíno: mahíz

The first word 'orkan' would likely come from Dutch 'orkaan', and the second word 'maishi', I would hazard a guess it's from some Spanish variety, due to -shi looking as if it was borrowed from the Spanish final pronunciation of -θ. (Although that might be more of a European than an American thing, when I think about it.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

konflikto 190.88.106.25 (talk) 05:48, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Was AI used for this?

There are some obvious issues with the Phonology section that read a lot like ChatGPT. There are some forms with inappropriate writing style and some forms with unsourced and incorrect information Siânsilurum (talk) 16:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Siânsilurum: Can you be more specific? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)