Talk:Michigan State University

Featured article review

This article no longer meets Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. There are unsourced paragraphs, unsourced sections and inconsistently, poorly-formatted citations, with titles including '"Archived copy". Archived from the original'. DrKay (talk) 15:03, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

MSU Awash in Scandals, Mismanagement, Secrecy

The article is omitting an enormous amount of negative media coverage focused on Michigan State University over the past 4 decades. Examples include Larry Nassar sexual assault cases and coverup, an athletic department plagued by accusations of violence for decades, MSU being repeatedly listed as one of the most "secretive institutions in America" as determined by its resistance to responding to Freedom of Information Act requests, and the MSU Board of Trustee being out of touch with the needs of students and faculty and repeatedly receiving votes of no confidence in them over decades of mismanagement, and a university obsessed with its football program over educational priorities -- paying $95 million to its head coach, etc. 217.180.219.219 (talk) 21:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Dick Martin an alumnus? Not merely unsubstantiated, but unequivocally refuted by R&M themselves

From the extensive profile/interview published in the Sep '68 issue of GQ:

"AND NOW, FOLKS, IT'S SOCK-IT-TO-ME TIME". Gentlemen's Quarterly. September 1968. p. 124. ProQuest 2414375130. 'We used to have bios written up,' Dan Rowan said, 'but they always included things like Dick having been a journalism major at Michigan State University, and so on. Lies. Dick didn't go to that school, and he didn't study journalism. Then we played a club in East Lansing, I think it was, and people came up to him and asked him, Were you in the class of so-and-so? That was when we decided, no more bios.' 'When I have the next bio done, I'll get Philip Wylie to write it,' Dick said, grinning. DavidESpeed (talk) 01:05, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

"Recent history"

An editor has twice removed the entire "Recent history" section of the page, which represents a substantial amount of sourced material. Neither time has the editor raised their concerns here on the Talk page, so I am opening that discussion. In the meantime I have restored the disputed material inasmuch as it appears to be properly sourced.

I take the point that the section pretty much all paints the school in an unfavorable light, and that some of it is less newsworthy and less encyclopedic than other parts. The solution however is not to remove the material wholesale and reflexively from the article but rather to review the material and determine whether all or some or none of it is appropriate to include; or whether nudging parts of it closer to NPOV would resolve the concerns. The bulk deletions for example would remove any mention whatsoever of the Nassar abuse scandal from this article, which IMHO would amount to a whitewash. Also I don't know much about the school's response to Covid-19 but it was certainly an important aspect of the school's recent history and warrants examination.

Other subsections may or may not merit inclusion. The point however is that we make a better encyclopedia page by talking about it, weighing the pros and cons, and arriving at consensus; not by removing the material repeatedly.

Thoughts are welcome. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

To aid in discussion, here are the subheadings. Let's come to agreement on each:

• Michigan State University-Oakland
• Agriculture Hall Arson
• Sexual assault investigation
• USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal
• COVID-19 shutdown
• 2021 Hazing death
• 2023 mass shooting

Any subheadings that have a separate standalone Wikipedia article IMHO pretty much have to be described here. The article identifies two. JohnInDC (talk) 21:23, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I took a quick first pass at the subtopics. The Oakland University, Gymnastics and 2023 shooting have to be in. Where and how, I haven't got that far; but in for sure, and more than just a link. The Sexual Assault Investigation is kind of old news at this point, and MSU was hardly the only school caught up in it; and I agree that the Covid-19 section doesn't describe anything much different than what happened at any other school in the country. The Arson and Hazing death were certainly newsworthy but I am supposing the coverage was limited in time and scope, unlike the three that I've identified as essential.

These views aren't locked in but may provide food for thought for others who may comment. JohnInDC (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, it's great to have a University of Michigan fan weigh in on these important topics. I'm glad to see that you have such an interest in making this page better!

I'm glad you agree with my recommended removal of the majority of the content. I had already changed the Oakland University reference to the history section where it belongs - not sure why that change was reverted.

Your affinity for the Wolverines was a great prompt to check on the University of Michigan page - formatting between similar Big Ten universities should be consistent. On that page, the editors put the massive U-M athletic Robert Anderson (sex offender) scandal under the "Safety" subheading in the Student Life section. There was also historical mentions of eco-terrorism similar to the Ag Hall Arson piece. I am aligned to matching this formatting. Snaprat (talk) 13:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The question for me as a Wikipedia editor is, what is the best solution for this page; not, what does the page of my alma mater look like. I'll take a look at your edits and see what I think. I wish you'd allowed consensus to evolve before diving in, but I appreciate your engaging on the issue. JohnInDC (talk) 14:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Having looked at the revised page, I don't think "Student Life" is the right place to talk about a mass shooting spree, an attempted arson, or a sexual abuse scandal that led to the resignation of the school's president. All of the matters at issue (other than perhaps the hazing death) extend far beyond the day-to-day preoccupations and diversions of the student body, and belong squarely in the History section. (I haven't compared the UM layout but I am betting I'd conclude the same thing.) I'll see what I can do about integrating that in a way that doesn't weight these recent matters too heavily by comparison to earlier events. Further, as I suggested above, not everything that ever made the papers demands inclusion here. Dallas Egbert III comes to mind in that regard.

The Indiana University - Bloomington article - another Big 10 school (not that it really matters) - may offer a useful model. JohnInDC (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2024 (UTC)