Talk:Royal Christmas message

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Holidays: Christmas Low‑importance

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Christianity: Christmas Low‑importance

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Royal Christmas message was the UK Collaboration of the Fortnight for the fortnight starting on December 26, 2004.
For details on improvements made to the article, see Past Collaborations and History

Firmly Established by 1939?

The note relating to the 1939 Christmas message indicates that "[t]he outbreak of the Second World War firmly established the Royal Christmas message." Assuming that the article is complete, this seems doubtful at best. If the article contains a complete listing of the Christmas messages, then there was none in 1940. Did someone forget to remind the King it was Christmas?John Paul Parks (talk) 15:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Talk from Queen's Christmas Message, 2004

Copied talk from Queen's Christmas Message, 2004

Copyright

Isn't the text Crown copyright? And shouldn't this go on wikisource if it isn't? ed g2s • talk 12:14, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know the details. I doubt it, as the Crown copyright applies to Government documents, this is put out by the Queen in her personal capacity. But it is made freely available so there's no problem with using it. I'm not even sure a public speech attracts copyright protection - after all, the person making the speech wants their words to be publicised and reported. jguk 12:18, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Speechs are very much under copyright protection - just as any other works once they are set onto any media. Even if this were public domain or under a free license, then it would still not be appropriate for Wikipedia. Wikisource would be the place to put it. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not number 13 "Mere collections of public domain or other source material." --mav 16:52, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Which section of the Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 are you referring to? It's not as though we are storing a copy of the broadcasts here, just the text of the speech (which is worth keeping here in the short-term whilst it is newsworthy. Lob it over to Wikisource in a fortnight's time, if you want. jguk 19:23, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is an encycopedia, not a newspaper. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. If something is only of limited-term value, then it has no place here. A transcript of a broadcast is a clear derivative work of that broadcast and thus the original copyright still applies. And copyright is fixed once a work is created. Unless the Queen or her agent expressly placed the item in the public domain, then it is under copyright. --mav 02:06, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Boradcasting something does not release it from copyright. We can quote sections, but reproducing the whole thing is clear copyvio. ed g2s • talk 19:37, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Under which legislative provision? jguk 20:42, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The material should be left out until we can show it is free from copyright, not the other way around. ed g2s • talk 04:11, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Strange. Wikipedia can link to (allegedly) copyrighted material, but not host it??? The BBC makes no mention of permission for use, or any other copyright mention on the material.

ed_g2s, having looked at the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (and related SIs), I can't see anything in it about this. We can't re-enact the Message without permission (that's banned), nor can we rebroadcast it. But there's nothing in there about quoting the speech. It would be rather odd too, wouldn't it, if we couldn't quote a speech? Not allowed to repeat Martin Luther King's "I have a dream", or Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner"? No reference to Thatcher's "U-turn if you want to - the lady's not for turning"? Speeches are put out in the public domain. There they remain. jguk 10:13, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Speechs most certainly are not in the public domain unless their copyright has expired or the owner of the copyright placed it there. There is no exception for speechs in copyright. --mav

Under which specific legislative provision? jguk 19:22, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You talk about "I Have a Dream", perhaps you should read the article on it then get back to us. ed g2s • talk 19:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

To be honest with you, I didn't as it's not really relevant here. It's protection under UK law that we're discussing. jguk 20:33, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Compliment

Nice article. – Kaihsu 20:17, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)

Merging

I think this article should be renamed Queen's Christmas Message and be more general as a large chunk of this article is just about a Queen's Christmas Message in general. Also there is already an article Queens-Christmas-Speech though it needs to be copyedited and wikified so that could be merged into this one. Evil Monkey → Talk 20:43, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Leave it separate whilst it's still on the main page in the "In the news" template. Once it's left there, I'd agree with merging, and expanding on info for earlier years' speeches (there's also an Annus horibilis page that should be merged too). jguk 21:09, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea Andreww 22:01, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree Hypno 04:42, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not to mention, it doesn't specify that it is Elizabeth II of the UK. Do Queen's of any other royal families give Christmas messages? -- Chuq 08:06, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think we have at least three pages to merge, Royal Christmas speech and Queen's Christmas Message are rather simmilar and, IMHO, they should be merged and one (and I don't know which) be a redirect to the other. The material on this page should be included as a sub-section (notable Christmas messages section?) and at leat some of the material from Annus horribilis also added. Andreww 10:48, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

George V and George VI's msgs should be merged into one article covering the general idea. Dunc|☺ 17:57, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Merged Queen's christmas message into royal christmas message. Assuming at some stage, some other member of the royal family will start giving the speeches. Not sure about the annus horribilis merge though, it's not clear whether annus horribilis was first used in the christmas message, or in another speech.

This page is going to become quite large if each year there is a summary of the speech, and the reactions. I guess we can figure that problem out later.

Number of speeches?

I believe that this years speech is known as the 51st Queens Christmas message and that 2003 was the 50th. The reason being that there was no speech in 1969 and the coronation was not until 1953. I emphasised that 2003 was the 50th in my original article, but this was edited. Which should it be?

You're right with everything except your counting:) . Her first one was in 1952 (maybe that's where you're going wrong instead), and she missed one speech, so her 50th was in 2002. (If you're not sure about counting, check the Royal Family's webpage on the Christmas Message - this also has 2002 as the year of the 50th speech.) jguk 10:10, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've been going through my video collection (think I have every Christmas message since 1994 somewhere - I am very sad), and the Queen announced in her 2001 message that it was her 50th. I can't explain this other than that she forgot taking a year off in 1969. Dbiv 00:29, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Queen correctly stated in her 2001 speech that is was her "50th Christmas message". She was including in this total the written Christmas message that was published in 1969 in place of the usual televised broadcast.GARRYHIGH (talk) 20:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See "The Golden Jubilee 1952-2002 A Photographic Record of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II" published by Fifty, Downswood, Bath, BA2 6DT (ISBN 0-86347-546-9). This volume includes the text of every Christmas broadcast from 1952 to 2001.GARRYHIGH (talk) 20:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The television documentary 'Royal Family' was a single episode programme. The documentary (not an episode from it) was repeated on Christmas Day 1969 in place of the Queen's Christmas Message. GARRYHIGH (talk) 15:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Useful info?

http://www.sim64.co.uk/queens.html may provide useful info to solve the annus horribilis question (and others). Andreww 19:59, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

1992 speech text is just: "Like many other families, we have lived through some difficult days this year...It has touched me deeply that so much support has come from those of you with troubles of your own. If we can sometimes lift our eyes from our own problems, and focus on those of others it will be at least a step in the right direction." Seems to be incomplete

1992 text: "Like many other families, we have lived through some difficult days this year. The prayers, understanding and sympathy given to us by so many of you, in good times and bad, have lent us great support and encouragement. It has touched me deeply that much of this has come from those of you who have troubles of your own."

The remainder of the quote reproduced above from the speech comes from a later paragraph, towards the end of the message: "But if we can sometimes lift our eyes from our own problems and focus on those of others, it will be at least a step in the right direction and Christmas is a good time to take it."GARRYHIGH (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this article here?

Why is this article under "Royal Christmas speech", a terminology that, as far as I am aware, is not used? The Royal Family website uses the terms "Christmas broadcast" and "Christmas message". Should we not use one of these terms instead? jguk 12:45, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They also use Christmas speech. All three names seem a bit generic.

As far as I can see both broadcast and message are more commonly used. As the article starts with the first broadcast (1932) and the message is not realy a speech (it is not given publicly, only publicly broadcast after the event) I think one of the alternitives may be more sensible. Andreww 08:59, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Try a google search under "Royal Christmas speech" and you will see why I think it shouldn't be here. There are 3 hits, 2 of which are Wikipedia. jguk 10:46, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Would there be any objections to my moving this to Royal Christmas Message? jguk 23:19, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No objection Andreww 02:17, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Late Majesty"

Is it really necessary to refer to each king and queen in this article as "His Late Majesty?" Simply saying, "King George VI continued the Christmas broadcasts" seems to suffice; adding "His Late Majesty" before the King's name seems unnecessary. Even Queen Elizabeth's own article only refers to the Queen as "Her Majesty" in the introduction, the titles section, and in direct quotations. 青い(Aoi) 06:00, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I quite agree and have been bold - is the history section better? Andreww 22:27, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Alternative Christmas Messages

I removed Victoria Beckham from the 2003 section. Though it was announced on the 3rd December that she was to present the message, these were only rumours. This report [1] from the 4th states that Channel 4 denied this, and that a couple from Wife Swap had recorded the message already.

Looking at Off The Telly's Christmas log for that year, which is only online during December and January, but here's a Google cache [2], it says "The Alternative Christmas Message, delivered by two of the "stars" of Wife Swap, was shown as usual at 3pm", which confirms the report. However, I've left the 2003 bit blank, as it seems a little odd to just say the message was from "a couple from Wife Swap" without saying any names. For the same reason, I've left the 1997 bit blank, as I know from Off the Telly [3] it was a Belfast schoolgirl, but, again, I don't know the name. Billy H 00:37, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

BBC/ITN

Someone recently added 'BBC' or 'ITN' to the descriptions of the messages, on the principle that they alternate every year. But the 2003 message was definitely a BBC production, which means they don't.

Anyone know how they actually alternate? Every two years? Billy H 12:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding was that they alternated every three years. Yet I come on here to find something rather different. I hope it can be sorted out. --Ross UK 16:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pleased to say that it's now sorted. It turns out to be biennial, so I'm pleased to have learned something new. --Ross UK 17:30, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is this 'original research'?

I note the claim that the 1998 broadcast was the first to appear on the internet. This is not strictly speaking true as the 1994 broadcast was the first. I know because I was the one who transcribed it from a video recording - proof archived here by Google groups. David | Talk 14:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Khadija Ravat

I have merged the info I created for the 2006 alternative Christmas message into this article. Triangle e 14:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2007 Message

As a New Zealander, I have already seen it, thanks to time zones. My brief description is as follows (hidden to be invisible):

(Select next paragraph to see the white text)

The clip starts with a B/W shot of the royal standard (which is just a modern colour shot made to look grey), and then goes to the intro of the *1957* message. The camera moves out, to reveal the TV that the message is playing on, and the shot then includes the Queen. She then goes on about technology, importance of the family, how Jesus was born into a family under distress (or something, I don't quite remember even 2 hrs ago!), etc... clip of troops in Afghanistan (she talks about Iraq and Afghanistan)... clip to a church choir singing God Save the Queen (I guess from the '57 video), then back to the flag, where the B/W is gradually changed to colour, with the BBC logo in the bottom right corner.

Sorry if this is a very rough description...

202.89.153.149 (talk) 09:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename and Reshuffle?

As most of this article pertains to the British Queen's Christmas Message, it should be renamed to something more accurate and appropriate. The Alternative Christmas Message should have its own article as they are two separate things. Kransky (talk) 10:09, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The Alternative Christmas Message section was split from here (without any discussion that I can see) with this edit in December 2009. It is now at Alternative Christmas message. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Queen Christmas message 2009

What had happened to the 2009 message, there is not even YouTube videos available? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.117.223 (talk) 17:43, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The external links section of the article has a valid link to a page with the transcript and YouTube video. Senator2029║talk 01:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Was there a speech in 1934?

This article includes a picture captioned "George V giving the 1934 Royal Christmas Message", but the table reports that "no message was delivered" in 1934. These can't both be right, but I don't know which is—can anyone shed any light on the issue? dendodge 01:03, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Who writes the text?

The article contains no information on who writes the text. Is the Christmas Message really one of the few occasions where really the Queen herself presents her own views to the public? Or is the Government or anybody else involved? Is there information on possbile ghost writers? Has anything changed about these aspects over the years?--Oudeístalk 14:53, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Now addressed. Merry Christmas and Happy New 2024 to all. Pol098 (talk) 21:27, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The first broadcast

The article suggests the first speech was only broadcast on the BBC Empire Service. Was it also broadcast on the UK domestic national and regional services and was it relayed by the non-BBC stations in Australia, Canada,India etc ? Was it broadcast live everywhere or were disc recordings made for broadcast at more convenient hours in parts of the world where the live broadcast was in the middle of the night? I am afriad I don't have the sources to deal with these questions.Spinney Hill (talk) 11:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)..[reply]

Fixable dead links

The article has many dead links like
<ref>{{Cite web |url=http://www.royal.gov.uk/ImagesandBroadcasts/TheQueensChristmasBroadcasts/ChristmasBroadcasts/Christmasbroadcast1953.aspx |title=Christmas Broadcast 1953 |website=The Official Website of the British Monarchy |publisher=The Royal Household |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304050859/http://www.royal.gov.uk/ImagesandBroadcasts/TheQueensChristmasBroadcasts/ChristmasBroadcasts/Christmasbroadcast1953.aspx |archive-date=4 March 2016 |access-date=29 December 2015}}</ref>^[1].

This is not too serious as archived links should work (they're not working for me at the moment, but probably a glitch with the Wayback Machine), but the dead links can be resuscitated by searching www.royal.gov.uk. In a link I revived I found search strings (without quotes) like site=http://www.royal.gov.uk christmas broadcast 1970 found a live link. It's likely that most links are like https://www.royal.uk/christmas-broadcast-1970 (the 1952 one isn't).

The links are (presumably always) dated 25 December of the relevant year; the access-date is quite pointless as the speech is never edited after delivery.

^ "Christmas Broadcast 1953". The Official Website of the British Monarchy. The Royal Household. Archived from the original on 4 March 2016. Retrieved 29 December 2015.

Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 23:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Christmas Broadcast 1953". The Official Website of the British Monarchy. The Royal Household. Archived from the original on 4 March 2016. Retrieved 29 December 2015.

[1]